Creating a Life That's NOT Centered Around Work with David Delaney

This week on the Courageously Unconventional podcast, I'm joined by my friend, David Delaney! My husband and I met David and his wife Heather a little over a year ago, and we quickly bonded over our shared nomadic lifestyles. Since then we've caravanned in our RVs with the Delaneys in two countries and have spent endless hours enjoying being neighbors and supporting each other in our creative pursuits!

Besides being a fellow full-time RVer, David is also a professional musician (he wrote the theme to this podcast!) and my CPA. 

David and I discuss…

• The impact of unschooling on how he approaches learning and life
• Why he left his dream job of being a musician to become a CPA
• How he learned to say no and set boundaries in his work
• Early retirement
• His advice for anyone who wants a life that's NOT centered around work (hint: it involves knowing your numbers!)

Enjoy this conversation with David Delaney!

Connect with David Delaney:
https://linktr.ee/whiskeyboys

Mentioned in the Episode:

• Heather Delaney, https://www.thedirtbagdao.com/
• Asia Dore, Brand Strategist https://asiadore.com/
• Brian Watts Video: https://www.youtube.com/@brianwattsvideo
• Elsewhere Music Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd5A__9nyxg

Connect with Lynn Grogan:
If you’re considering a major career or lifestyle change and want to talk to someone, I’m here for you! See if we're a good fit for 1:1 life coaching by scheduling a free consultation here: https://lynngrogan.com/work-with-me/

Visit my website: https://lynngrogan.com

Let's Connect! Find me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lynngrogan/

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Have a question or want me to talk about a particular topic? Email me at lynn@lynngrogan.com

Original music by David Delaney of The Whiskey Boys: Linktr.ee/whiskeyboys

Transcript

Lynn Grogan [00:00:01]:
You are listening to the Courageously Unconventional podcast. If you want to change your life and start living on your own terms, you're in the right place. I'm your host, Lynn Grogan. I'm a certified life coach, and I wanna help you take action toward creating your own unconventional life. Each week, I'll share inspiring and unconventional stories from those who have gone before you as well as actionable steps you can take to start your own unconventional path today. Let's go. Today, I have a special guest on the show, my friend, David Delaney. So my husband and I met David and his wife, Heather, a little over a year ago, and we quickly bonded over our shared nomadic lifestyles.

Lynn Grogan [00:00:47]:
Since then we've caravaned with the Delany's in our RVs in 2 different countries, and we have spent endless hours enjoying being neighbors and supporting each other in our creative pursuits. So besides being a fellow full time RVer, David is also a professional musician. He wrote the theme song to this podcast, and he is my CPA. 


Enjoy this conversation with David Delaney. 

Okay. So we're gonna start at the very beginning, David, because this is something that's fascinating for me. So, like, one of the very first things that I learned about you is that you were homeschooled. And up until, like, maybe a week ago, I assume that meant that your parents had this whole regimented, like, homeschooling routine, and it was just, like, normal school but at home.

Lynn Grogan [00:01:31]:
And I found out that that is not the case at all. Can you please tell me about what all happened?

David Delaney [00:01:36]:
Yeah. When people hear that I was homeschooled or when anyone is homeschooled, when people hear that my friends were homeschooled, they often think that there was, like, a schoolroom and class times, and my mom was my teacher. My parents subscribed to a branch of homeschooling called unschooling, which really puts a great deal of faith in the idea that children want to learn, and they're the little sponges, and they will learn. It's very much, sometimes called interest based learning. And so, yeah, there was I wouldn't when I say there wasn't a lot of structure, I'm really underselling it. There was really pretty much no structure. There were no class times. We kind of, like, ran around in the backyard a lot.

David Delaney [00:02:16]:
But when interest struck, my parents would, like, fan those flames like crazy. A great example of the one we usually bring up, is that my little sister, Mary, when she was really little, like, 5 or 6, like, thought Monet paintings were really pretty. So my parents were like, oh, great. And they got a whole bunch of, like, museum memberships and took us to all the museums that we could drive to. And Mary, to this day, can, like, identify almost all the Monet paintings. The rest of us got kind of a peripheral art education just because now we were constantly in museums. So not only did Mary's interest get fanned and she learned a lot about art, but there was also a residual effect on all of us. Another one I think about is that I was a really picky eater, growing up really picky.

David Delaney [00:02:58]:
And I would skip meals and not eat, and I came up with this clever loophole where I got into baking. And I discovered that if I had made myself cookies or brownies, my parents felt bad saying I couldn't eat them because I put the work into it. So I would not eat dinner and then eat all these sweet treats I'd made. And that was largely my motivation. Right? It was to skip dinner and eat cookies. But as a result, I got into baking and learned fractions. And I learned, like, a whole bunch of stuff like that, you know. And that kind of like how to follow a recipe, you know, leads into some other math questions.

David Delaney [00:03:28]:
Sometimes I wanna double the recipe. Now I'm doubling fractions, you know. And those kinds of things, you know, can snowball if you just follow a kid's interest, which is, to me, risky. It seems like it wouldn't work, but it did is the thing. Like, I seem to know all the things that my peers know. Another thing that helped a lot, once you're a teenager, you start being self conscious and start understanding what other people know that you don't know. So there were some things that my interest base did not, like, push me into. Like, I wound up being a teenager and I knew a lot about music, but my math skills were a little shy.

David Delaney [00:04:05]:
But what happened was I started going out to, like, diners with friends. They knew how to split the check, and I didn't. So I would kind of, like, keep my head down through the first of those interactions. But the next time, I would know everything I need to know to get through that interaction and not embarrass myself. So and in that way, it can be kind of, like, efficient learning. Because rather than taking, like, 12 years of schooling to learn all this math, I would, like, cram it because I want to be ready for the next time I went out with my friends at the diner, and I would learn very, very quickly, as a result.

Lynn Grogan [00:04:38]:
So it sounds like you just kind of observed a lot when you were out in the wild. I mean, it sounds like you had, like, this little family unit where you just figured out what you were going to do, but then when you're out in the wild, you just learn on the fly Yeah. Out of necessity.

David Delaney [00:04:51]:
That, I would say, is the number one benefit of my unschooling education. And I think most unschooling educations that I've seen is that education and learning, the the motive,

Lynn Grogan [00:05:02]:
Motivation? Motivation. Yeah.

David Delaney [00:05:04]:
I was in charge of my learning, not a teacher, not my parents. And so if I didn't know something, like, I I was gonna go out and figure it out. And that has served me my whole life. It's that when I encounter a problem, I don't look for a teacher. I look for the information to teach myself.

Lynn Grogan [00:05:19]:
Yeah. It's a different level of responsibility because, I mean, I just remember going through school and being like, well, I gotta get an A for the teacher and my parents want me to. Not really that motivated.

David Delaney [00:05:28]:
It's not. And it also leads you to kind of, like, checking boxes Yeah. Idea of learning versus, like, learning either for learning's sake or to accomplish an overall goal. I will say I don't wanna give my parents no credit. Firstly, they chose this education system, which worked for me. I have seen it not work for other people. And schooling can get, like, a bad rep for this. Like, regular education doesn't work for everybody either.

David Delaney [00:05:52]:
Public high school does not have a 100% success rate. No education system does, and homeschooling doesn't either. So what I don't really remember, but what I'm sure happened is that there was some nudging going on for my parents. And I know this because I saw other homeschoolers who were getting no nudging. And in that way, I saw some people kind of flounder the way people flounder in high school. They were kind of directionless.

Lynn Grogan [00:06:14]:
Yeah. It's a huge leap of faith on your parents' part to just try this different thing, which is obviously unconventional. It's obviously different. Had they ever known anybody else who had done this before they tried it?

David Delaney [00:06:24]:
That's a great question. I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't think that bothered my mom at all. She was always happy to do whatever weird thing was gonna be it.

Lynn Grogan [00:06:31]:
So, obviously, you're kind of in your own little world there, but, like, if we're thinking about it, like, okay, obviously, you went from that scene to then you went to college, which is very different than doing your own thing. So you went to Berkeley School of Music. Is that right?

David Delaney [00:06:46]:
I did. Yes.

Lynn Grogan [00:06:47]:
Yeah. So what was it like to go from not having a system that you were a part of to suddenly being a part of both, obviously, community college first and then Berkeley?

David Delaney [00:06:56]:
I will say, yeah. It was a shock to the system. 

David Delaney [00:07:02]:
The real system. And at first, it was very frustrating to be dealing with rules that I didn't understand or agree with but was nonetheless subject to. Like, that's very new to me.

Lynn Grogan [00:07:13]:
Do you remember any?

David Delaney [00:07:14]:
Not really. And I almost immediately started, like, pushing past them. Because, like, one strength I would say, another strength of homeschooling is that, in having never been in a system, I was able to really see it and see how I was interacting with it. I was never, like, swimming in it. And so one thing I can remember is at that community college, I was taking, I think, trigonometry. I also wanted to go play shows, and play Irish fiddle with my dad. Class was 2 nights a week, and I wanted to go one of those times, skip that class and go play music in Newport, Rhode Island. And I knew that she taught an identical class twice a week.

David Delaney [00:07:50]:
So I was like, just let me take your class. I'll take it Monday Thursday rather than Monday Wednesday. And she was like, no. You can't do that. And I was like, ah, come on. Come on. She was like, I don't keep them, like, perfectly lined up. Like, you won't be able to do it.

David Delaney [00:08:01]:
And I was like, yeah. I'll be fine. And it made it so much harder because it constantly felt like I was missing a lecture. But I did fine. I think I got an A in the class. Another version of me would have never learned that you can just question rules and push right past them.

Lynn Grogan [00:08:15]:
Yeah. Well, it's just like as you're talking, I'm just thinking about, like, how basically I feel like I was programmed, like, going through school, like, checking the boxes, like you said, but having a sense of work. Like, I think I got to high school, and it was like, okay. What are you gonna do next in college? How are you gonna structure your life? How are you gonna structure your career? And I felt like a lot of that came from the school system. And I'm wondering, like, what you learned about work and working growing up being in this different type of environment.

David Delaney [00:08:45]:
So I feel like work and work times are very interesting because I've been thinking about this a lot lately. But growing up, I don't think I thought of much of anything as work. Like, there was practice, which I sometimes procrastinate on.

Lynn Grogan [00:09:00]:
Like music practice?

David Delaney [00:09:01]:
Music practice. My sisters and I also Irish step danced.

Lynn Grogan [00:09:04]:
Of course you did.

David Delaney [00:09:05]:
Yeah. And so those things were practiced, and I I think I considered that work and that I would sometimes

Lynn Grogan [00:09:11]:
avoid it, but knew it was good for me or it was doing

David Delaney [00:09:11]:
something for me. But until I reached college, there wasn't, like, these periods of, like, this is work and this is my regular life. It was all just one blend of regular life. And then, yeah, at college, then you have class and you have homework and those are work.

Lynn Grogan [00:09:24]:
How did you think about your future growing up? Because I think that was the other thing too is it was always like, here's what happens next. You go from 3rd grade to 4th grade, then you get up to high school, and then you graduate. And, you know, like, you there's, like, always this line of the future, and it was, like, thinking about what's next. But from what we've talked about, it doesn't sound like you had grades. It's not like yeah. Yeah.

David Delaney [00:09:47]:
Pretty much it was just the end goal of college, I think. My mom wanted us all to go to college, and then my sister and my brother did. And I wanted to be, like, at least appear just as smart as they were. And so I think that was the progression. And then after that, I somehow managed to convince my parents to let me go to music school, which isn't very generous of them because, you know, not a lot of money in the arts. But I just figured I'd figure it out. I think that comes from my dad. He is a self employed CPA.

David Delaney [00:10:19]:
And I always saw that he had a lot of control over his time, and that has appealed to me my whole life. I was like, I wanted to, like, follow my passions and do music, but I also liked that that would mean I was, like, making my own deals and, like, freelancing and not working regular hours. That working regular hours never appealed to me at all.

Lynn Grogan [00:10:39]:
Yeah. Which is so interesting too. Like, I keep I'm obviously comparing our 2 situations, but just I think it's just I always thought it was inevitable that, like, oh, at some point you might work in an office, and you work 9 to 5, and then, you know, and then then you have this weekend and it's that's the, like, the the holy land or the holy grail of time. Like, that's what you get is evenings and weekends. And I don't it wasn't until, I don't know, like, early twenties where I realized that, like, maybe that's not the case. Like, maybe you don't need to do that, but it sounds like you always were kind of playing around with that.

David Delaney [00:11:12]:
I definitely knew that that was an option. I knew it was an option that didn't appeal to me. So I was really hoping I could avoid it, and I seem to

Lynn Grogan [00:11:19]:
have done so.

David Delaney [00:11:20]:
Yeah. Because I've never worked a 9 to 5. I kind of did right at the start of my CPA stuff, but I knew it was temporary.

Lynn Grogan [00:11:29]:
Okay. Well, let's backtrack because then obviously you went to college, you went to Berkeley. Berkeley. And then, okay. So and I know you became a professional musician right after that right after leaving that. So how did In Berkeley,

David Delaney [00:11:41]:
I was already starting to learn to hustle because I was driven by anxiety that I would not be able to pull it off. So I was already trying as hard as I could to pull it off, like, as soon as I hit the ground in Berkeley.

Lynn Grogan [00:11:52]:
Wait. Say more about that. Because I think a lot of people also think, oh, you go to college and then after that's when your, like, your life starts afterwards. Your working life starts after. That's not the case for you.

David Delaney [00:12:03]:
No. I thought it was so unlikely that I'd be able to make it work that I should start trying to make it work right now. I already knew how to get gigs. I've been so since we had a family band, Partridge Family Style. We used to play in assisted care facilities and for the old folks. And my parents taught me exactly the wrong lesson about making money at music because, like, we would make bank. They would split the money with us equally. Meanwhile, they were driving us everywhere and my dad bought the sound system.

David Delaney [00:12:29]:
But, like, we got complete full equity in the band, which was, like, way too much money for kids to have, which actually taught me a lot about savings. And then after we eventually my voice started changing, and I got self conscious, and I I quit the band, and at the same time, everyone else did. A little later, I was, like, 15 or 16, and I decided I wanted, like, scratch money or a job. And I looked at my options, which were, like, the worst of the worst shifts at a restaurant or, like, bagging groceries. And I was like, you know, it was really sweet when I was making all that sweet, sweet music money doing nothing. So I asked my dad if he wanted to play gigs again. He totally did. And so we went back to it.

David Delaney [00:13:06]:
And, again, 5050 equity split even though he was covering all the gas, all the meals. What a generous man.

Lynn Grogan [00:13:13]:
I'm just imagining little David, like, looking at his options going, this is a crap job. Like, really? That's the little amount you make was probably, what, like, $8 an hour at the time or something?

David Delaney [00:13:23]:
And the worst hours. And also, like, you had to show up at a particular time and do boring stuff. And I was like, no. I just wanna, like, play my film. Like, that sounds way more fun, and I'll make more money. So, yeah, that was, I was set up with exactly the wrong lessons to go into regular gain employment.

Lynn Grogan [00:13:39]:
Or the right or the very right ones for you.

David Delaney [00:13:41]:
It seemed to work out, because yeah. So I got to Berkeley, and I already knew how to book shows and what people should be expected to pay me for playing shows. So as soon as I had a guitar player to play with, I just cold called, like, every venue I could call in Boston, figured out who was the person to talk to, and then got us several regular gigs throughout. And then I also put up an ad on Craigslist because I figured if I'm playing music at college, surely I know enough to teach a beginner. So I started teaching violin lessons. And I had all of that set up by the time I graduated, and I was pretty quickly able to keep myself afloat with it.

Lynn Grogan [00:14:19]:
Okay. So then you entered into what I think most people would consider unconventional, like a professional musician working full time more than full time?

David Delaney [00:14:28]:
Well, I would probably be full time, but I was hustling at so many different things. It wasn't like I would never be able to add up my hours because I'd started a wedding band at that point, and so I was, like, emailing, setting up contracts, booking, playing the weddings, managing all my different musicians. And then I also had my, like, artistic outlet, which was my band, Whiskey Boys. I still have that kind of me now.

Lynn Grogan [00:14:51]:
So it sounds like that could have been a dream job, but then you became a CPA. So talk me through how you went from being a professional musician and what motivated you to become a CPA?

David Delaney [00:15:02]:
Well, it comes down to why I wanted to be a professional musician. Like, what I really like about music is, I don't think this is unusual, but, like, the creative aspects. I love to write songs. I love to share those songs with other people. And what I'd found was it's so much easier to make music, doing anything but that. So like weddings, teaching other people to play music, pretty much every part of my job, all of my different jobs, made money to support the artistic one. My band, the Whiskey Boys, which is what I like, the reason I got out of bed in the morning, did not make very much money. The other ones did.

David Delaney [00:15:39]:
And I found more and more I was pouring my time into the ones that made money. They were like a compromise. I was kind of doing music. Yeah. Kind of doing what I want. And what I found after a lot of doing it, like 10 years of doing it, is that even though these things were kind of music, wedding band, teaching, side being on other people's projects, they all kind of took from the same well of artistic, like, energy. And so gradually, I found I was having less energy for the band I actually cared about. And I was also only playing music when I got paid to do it, which is, like, really antithetical to why I was doing it at all. I wanted to, like, play more music and be experiencing joy creating music, and I was finding it felt like a job.

David Delaney [00:16:21]:
And I was only doing the job aspects of it. Yeah. And so and also I kind of, never got over wondering if I believed it or not, in 10 years, I never got over wondering if I was good enough to be a professional musician, despite doing it, I was always constantly worried. I wasn't really, I didn't really belong doing it. I was tired of that feeling, and I was tired of, I projected, like, the next, you know, 40, 50 years of my life making the same money I was making. Because I peaked. Like, I was making enough money, but I really found a ceiling of what I could do, in that area in Boston in the, like, folky area I was doing. And then I just, like, I thought about other plans, and I'd already met Heather.

David Delaney [00:17:01]:
And Heather wasn't happy with her job, and she oftentimes, like, would flip jobs, but she never had enough time to, like, find a job she really cared about or liked. And I was like, what if I do what my dad has always wanted me to do? He wanted someone to take over his CPA practice. He had five kids, and they all turned him down. I mean, it's not an exciting offer to his 18 year old No. To become a CPA, have CPA practice. But in my twenties, eventually, it was. I was like, I can see how this would afford me a ton of freedom. People expect to pay CPAs whereas they do not expect to pay musicians.

David Delaney [00:17:35]:
And, with a little research, I found that you could become a CPA with a music undergrad. So I was like, nice. So, yeah, I did a huge career shift. I kind of closed down my music businesses, had a quitter job. We went on a 7 month backpacking trip as, like, a gap year. And then, from there, I started studying to be a CPA.

Lynn Grogan [00:17:53]:
Yeah. Well, and I think what, like, what I'm drawing out of this is it's so interesting that you can go into what seems to be your dream job. And then you have to have that realization at some point that, like, okay, the idea of the dream is a little bit different than the actual dream itself. And taking that step back, and I think that's the part where not everybody will do that, to take the step back and be like, oh, I see. I really love pursuing this as, like, my passion, but maybe it's not something I need to get money for in this way or as my livelihood. Like, maybe it's something else different. So okay. So you left being a professional musician.

Lynn Grogan [00:18:30]:
You became a CPA.

David Delaney [00:18:32]:
Yeah. And that was its own journey, which I think my homeschooling education really helped me on because I before I even started classes, what I did was I went on YouTube and tried to, like

Lynn Grogan [00:18:41]:
Oh my gosh. Catch

David Delaney [00:18:42]:
up because I didn't know anything about financing. Like, I was just

Lynn Grogan [00:18:45]:
Even having your dad as a CPA?

David Delaney [00:18:47]:
Yeah. I just would have the effect of having my dad as a CPA was that he did my taxes. I hated them and answered his questions, and that was it. Like, I was an artist through and through. I knew nothing about finance or anything. And so I knew I had a steep learning curve to learn anything useful. And so I found this great teacher. I think he was from Thailand, and he was so mean to his students.

David Delaney [00:19:07]:
But he was trying so hard to teach them. His students were clearly ungrateful jerks. I was on this teacher's side the whole way. He was the best.

Lynn Grogan [00:19:14]:
Oh my gosh. Okay. So I know a lot went into becoming a CPA, but, you know, I think the part where I've heard a lot more about is and I have this idea of CPAs, which I think is matched by your experience initially where it's like constant work holism, especially around tax season. But Yeah. What happened?

David Delaney [00:19:32]:
It's so prevalent in this field. I don't know what makes it that way. As an extreme example of that, I know 2 CPAs this year who died in the saddle. I got a new client because they called me, and they're like, hey. My CPA was doing my taxes. They're dead now. So would you mind doing my taxes? Like, oh my god. Yeah.

David Delaney [00:19:53]:
That's fine. But that kind of work ethic, I think it speaks to a workaholism. I think if you, like, die in the middle of tax season, you probably should have retired prior to that tax season.

Lynn Grogan [00:20:07]:
Yeah. Maybe so. Well and I think too is, it kinda goes back to this whole idea of, like, okay. This is what a profession is. This is what you do. Tell me about your transition through, like, when you started working to, like, where you're at today in terms of how you manage your work life balance.

David Delaney [00:20:24]:
Yeah. At the beginning, my work life balance was terrible. And it was especially because I was trying so hard to, like, learn and then get my CPA. And through most of that, I was also working. People have this much worse than me. Like, a lot of people work full time and study for the CPA exam, which would be a nightmare. The CPA exam a lot of people say it's harder than the bar exam. I've never taken the bar exam, so I can't say.

David Delaney [00:20:46]:
But it was incredibly difficult. And so all of that led me to, like, this kind of work ethic, which wasn't, I don't think, very me. Or just like go go go, keep going. Try as hard as you can all the time. The CPA practice I joined, which was my dad's, they he had not had no reason to really modernize the practice, so he had stuck with things that had worked for him for decades, which was like working on paper, very few computer assisted tools. And so first of all, this was incompatible with what I was learning in my education. I was learning how to use, like, programs and I mean, he had programs, but I also knew it was incompatible with what I wanted to do with the practice. I always knew I wanted to work remotely, and go back to traveling with Heather.

David Delaney [00:21:29]:
The plan was that this would give us a career that would give us enough money to travel and do what we wanted comfortably. And the worst thing for that would be me trapped in Connecticut working 9 to 5, with, like, 2 weeks vacation. So my dad had 5 kids. I have 0 kids. My dad put 4 of those kids through college and supported all 5 of us in many, many ways. He had kind of a fire under him to make money that I have not had to, which is a huge privilege I have.

Lynn Grogan [00:21:57]:
Yeah.

David Delaney [00:21:58]:
And so he had this work ethic, which I picked up from him immediately, which was, like, say yes to everything. And, actually, you kind of hear that all the

Lynn Grogan [00:22:07]:
time. It's a good way

David Delaney [00:22:07]:
to build your business and, like, create wealth. So we were so busy. The practice was doing the work, I think, of, like, 4 CPA firms, and he was still constantly taking on new clients. And I would do the same thing. I just picked it up exactly the same as we got a new client. I would be like, yes. I'd work out how to work with them. We would have more work to do.

David Delaney [00:22:24]:
And we were already, like, behind. I could see the backlog, and it was, like, significant, and we were adding to it with new clients.

Lynn Grogan [00:22:31]:
Wow. What was that like? I mean

David Delaney [00:22:33]:
To me, it was completely overwhelming, and I'd come home, like, totally, demoralized, because I'd worked as hard as I could as long as I could, and I still thought we were falling behind, and falling short of our commitments. But, I mean, I guess I kind of, like, internalized that this was, like, how to do it. And so I was doing it and doing it. And for many years, even after the big change was COVID hit and all my work to make things remote had to start working immediately. And so we did. We started working immediately, and that's when Heather and I decided to, like, hit the road, because we'd already thought about that. We thought it would just take way longer. But so we did all that, but I found for, like, a year or so, maybe more later, that I still had that same feeling of, like, gotta go go go, gotta get more clients, gotta work harder.

David Delaney [00:23:22]:
And in that way, it was, like, completely eating my life. I thought about CPA stuff all the time. I was always anxious about some problem or some client and always still taking more clients to make the problem worse. And I really didn't see a way out of it. What really changed there was that Heather made me talk to her friend, Asia. Well, Asia was very generous to talk to me. Asia is Heather's friend. She was her maid of honor at our wedding, and she's a brand strategist.

David Delaney [00:23:49]:
But she works with a lot of small businesses. But she graciously, like, had a Zoom meeting with me. And she pointed out to me almost, like, therapy wise, like, a lot of ways that I was saying things I wanted and not doing anything to get them. Like, you know, I have too many clients. I'm so overloaded. And she's like, are you still taking new clients? And I was like, yes. All the time. I was like, stop doing that.

David Delaney [00:24:09]:
Like and then she was like, what's, like, a major stressor with the clients? I was like, that they are in the dark age, that they're trying to deliver me paper, but I'm in Arizona, so it has to get scanned and then sent to me. And also, like, I don't wanna do that. I wanna work on PDFs. It's so much quicker. She was like, great. You have too many clients. The first question you should ask a new client is, are you digitally comfortable? Are you able to scan me documents? Can you take pictures of things? And, like, this was mind blowing to me that I could sort my clients and say no and pick and choose. And it took me a long time to start really implementing it.

David Delaney [00:24:41]:
Like, I found that, like, the next few clients, I just took them.

Lynn Grogan [00:24:45]:
Well, of course. Like, I think that's our natural inclination. It's just, like, we do what we've always done, and then we're like, oh, wait. I'm doing it again. Like, you have that awareness. You can't unsee the things that your friend told you, and then you kinda figure it out from there.

David Delaney [00:25:00]:
So it took a really long time to implement Asia's advice because I didn't really fire any clients. Some of them eventually, like, closed their businesses or eventually, I did stop trying so hard to keep bad clients. Like, clients who were, mean, for example. That's my number one thing

Lynn Grogan [00:25:21]:
is if you're mean. If you're mean.

David Delaney [00:25:22]:
Like, I'll handle a lot of incompetence before I'll deal with meanness. But meanness, I would just stop being quite so accommodating. And I found that way, eventually, they would kind of leave on their own. They would fire me, which is easier for me.

Lynn Grogan [00:25:36]:
Easy peasy. Yeah.

David Delaney [00:25:38]:
So I've kind of sculpted it down in that way. Last tax season was better. Better enough. I was thinking maybe

Lynn Grogan [00:25:44]:
What do you mean by better?

David Delaney [00:25:45]:
So it used to be, like, tax season was, like, life ruiningly stressful. Like, I would think about it all the time. I would get to the end of it and, like, just be a shell of a person, and, like, my emotions and my personality would be worse. It would change me, the stress, and it would take me a long time to recover. I also remember this pattern with my dad growing up that, like, you basically wouldn't see him during tax season, and then afterwards, there'd be recovery season, and then he'd be dead again. Not healthy. Yeah. But I think it is quite common in the CPA profession.

David Delaney [00:26:14]:
After doing a lot of client trimming and doing a lot of things it's like a leap of faith, but I had to like basically, I decided either I'm quitting this job while I haven't. I might as well try and make it better. So last year's decision was better enough that I was like, I'm gonna try it one more time. And the year was still really busy. That's another thing. The lie of is that, like, you have tax season as the really busy season. The rest of the time you really have control of your schedule. That's not the case for most CPAs.

David Delaney [00:26:45]:
Honestly, I think most of them, like, kind of, like, enjoy the feeling of being constantly needed so badly and always having this exciting thing they have to do right now because the deadline is coming up. I think that can be kind of intoxicating.

Lynn Grogan [00:26:55]:
Intoxicating in what way? It

David Delaney [00:26:56]:
makes you feel very important. Ah,

Lynn Grogan [00:26:58]:
like, worthy and valued.

David Delaney [00:27:00]:
Yeah. You're the only one who knows these numbers. You're the only one who knows the deadline. Like, you're the only one who can get this done. And it makes you feel even more important if multiple people are, like, needing you to get this done by the deadline. So I think that that leads people a lot of CPAs into, like, a workaholic trap.

Lynn Grogan [00:27:14]:
I think that's a lot of people.

David Delaney [00:27:16]:
Yeah?

Lynn Grogan [00:27:16]:
Yeah. I think so. I mean, a lot of the clients I coach, like, that's a lot of the coaching that we do. Is that like, wow, I feel so valued here. It's an easy, like, value exchange too. If you're helping people in your profession

David Delaney [00:27:28]:
Yeah.

Lynn Grogan [00:27:29]:
You're right. It's intoxicating, and it's a dopamine hit, and you want more of it. And if you don't have

Like, you don't have to worry about, like, what you're doing with your life or if you're, like, happy. Because you're too busy to think about all that. So in some way that, like, that just fills up all the time. You don't have to think about anything else that might be troubling you.

Lynn Grogan [00:27:47]:
Yeah. Well and I know that for me is, like and I've had to work on this a lot too. Like, when the pandemic was starting, like, Josh was up on it. He knew what was happening before everything shut down, and I had a work trip. Yeah. He was on it. He's like, something bad is happening in the world. And I was like, yeah, whatever.

Lynn Grogan [00:28:03]:
Whatever. It's just a cold. Whatever. And I had this work trip, and he's like, I don't want you to go on this work trip. I don't think it's a good idea. And I was just, like, so dedicated to work, and I didn't wanna let my boss down. And I was, like, I think I can repair things over here with Josh, but I don't know. I don't know what would happen if I canceled on my boss and told her I wasn't gonna fly, and then we had to cancel the flights and all the money involved and stuff.

Lynn Grogan [00:28:27]:
I was so scared of that situation

David Delaney [00:28:29]:
Mhmm.

Lynn Grogan [00:28:29]:
That I was willing to overlook it over here. And I knew I was like, oh, if I go, I'm gonna be even more valued because a lot of people are kind of like freaking out right now and canceling and whatnot. And so, it's hard. I mean, it kinda goes back to what you're saying before about just saying yes to things because it's like, oh, gosh. What will they think of me? Or what if I don't have that income coming in? I have to say yes to everything. And then you forget about the future impact on your life of living out the yes that you just said yes to.

David Delaney [00:28:56]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like saying yes to everything is, like, the self help I heard all growing up. It's definitely how I made my music career

Lynn Grogan [00:29:04]:
Yeah.

David Delaney [00:29:04]:
If I was just like literally anything that came in, say yes to it because you never know what it might lead to. Although, I'll tell you, after 10 years of music, I also learned I should have been picking clients just like I was doing in CPMs. Famous joke, but, like, you do things as a musician for exposure, but you can die of exposure. But That's funny. Yeah. When I look back, the gigs that I did for free or because I thought they would, like, build my lead to something else, they almost never worked out or led to anything. It was only when I was being valued upfront that anything happened afterwards. So, like, if I thought I should be paid for a gig and I accepted it to do it for free, it would go nowhere.

David Delaney [00:29:43]:
But if I charged for it, much more likely something would happen.

Lynn Grogan [00:29:46]:
Oh, that's so interesting because I think we have this idea that, like, if you give it for free, it's just as valuable, if not more valuable Yeah. Then if I charged a boatload of money.

David Delaney [00:29:55]:
Yeah. But meanwhile, I think the reality of it is that whoever's hiring you, if they think your time is worthless, then they're not gonna help you later.

Lynn Grogan [00:30:03]:
That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Because they think about you in a particular way, and it's hard to steer that ship in a different direction if that's how you start.

David Delaney [00:30:10]:
Yeah. For sure.

Lynn Grogan [00:30:12]:
Interesting. So I had the opportunity to witness you now in 2 tax seasons. And I actually noticed the difference between 1st tax season and second tax season. So during the 1st tax season, we were in Quartzsite, Arizona.

David Delaney [00:30:24]:
I think so.

Lynn Grogan [00:30:25]:
Yeah. Yes. And I did notice. I was like, I think David's kinda gone. Like, you were there and then not there.

David Delaney [00:30:32]:
Yeah. I kind of vanished into it. And then even when I'm around, you know, I'm still thinking about it. Yeah. At least I was that year. This year, I feel like I was able to disconnect more. And it's just because there was a smaller volume of work.

Lynn Grogan [00:30:42]:
Yeah. Well and I I felt like you were managing things differently, group, David. But it is our missing father in the group, David. But it told me that you were figuring things out in a different way, and and, like, he must be doing something different over there because my experience of you is just that much different from year to year.

David Delaney [00:31:07]:
Yeah. That's great to hear because it felt that way. And I definitely didn't need to take as much recovery time. And this year, I'm like, yeah. It would definitely be worth it to do another tax season because, like, you know, I make money, which I can use for other stuff I like. And previously, I don't think there would be an amount of money that I could make that would have made the suffering worth it. And also I feel like if you're really suffering at your job, it bleeds into your life in a lot of insidious ways. Like if you really suffered for your money, if you go out to a restaurant, the restaurant better be good because you remember what you what this cost you.

Lynn Grogan [00:31:42]:
So you just mentioned something interesting before. You're saying, like, oh, that makes another tax season worth it, which suggests to me that maybe you're thinking about not doing a future tax season. Do you wanna talk about future plans?

David Delaney [00:31:55]:
Yeah. I don't know when I'm gonna do it, but part of this shift I never thought I wanted to be a CPA until I was, like, 65. So at the time, I was thinking about doing the flip from music to CPA. I can't remember this exactly. It might have been even when I was still a musician I was reading about this, but the financial independence retire early movement. And I was looking at it, and I was like, oh, I'd never be able to come close to what I needed to do with this on a musician's salary. Although, there's people with blogs who say you can do it on any salary. It just takes more aggressive savings.

David Delaney [00:32:23]:
The plan a few years ago when tax season was ruining my life periodically, and I was still really busy all the rest of the year, was that we would quit, and I wouldn't need to find such an intense job because we'd already saved a lot. We'd moved towards that goal pretty significantly. Mhmm. So I could get, like, something way way easier. But now with things easier, I'm gonna do another tax season because the last one wasn't so bad, and it was profitable. And then eventually, yeah, we'll retire and pretty early, probably in our thirties, which is very

Lynn Grogan [00:32:52]:
Yeah. It's crazy. Because how old are you right now?

David Delaney [00:32:54]:
I'm 35. I just have to remember.

Lynn Grogan [00:32:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, how does that impact

David Delaney [00:33:08]:
It definitely made me more confident to start thinning out my clients. But actually, it all kind of loops together because I would say a huge part of firing financial independancing is less about earning, more about spending. I said that I didn't think I could do it on a musician's salary, and I I do think that would have been so much harder. But it's a lot about controlling your outflow more than your inflow. And so Heather and I got really, really, careful about our spending and just analyzing what we're spending on, why, and then in the same way kind of thinking about anything we spent money on afterwards. And I found over time that I was just like, spending money on things that were just, like, not doing anything for me.

Lynn Grogan [00:33:47]:
Like what?

David Delaney [00:33:49]:
A lot of just, like, buying stuff. I would buy an object and then not use it. Or I would, I used to eat out and go out to bars a lot more. And when I really analyzed how much fun I was having versus how much money I was spending, I found that it just wasn't a good return on investment for me to use a financial term. And over time, I've kind of found that most ways to spend money, I don't think return for me the way that, like, society tells me it will. To take extreme examples, like, we're a very consumer society. You're supposed to go out and buy cool new stuff. Yeah.

David Delaney [00:34:23]:
Examining my purchases over and over, I find that, like, a lot of times, more often than not, they let me down. They don't provide me with that feeling that I had when I first, like, saw it and that the thing I wanted to buy was like a glimmer in my eye. When I really look at the whole emotional process of, like, buying something, it's like a glimmer in the eye feels great. Waiting for it to arrive feels great. Opening the package feels great. Very shortly thereafter, like, the pleasure of, like, the new object, like, dies. Yeah. And it becomes, like, a thing I have to put somewhere, a thing that collects dust, things that I feel bad about not using enough because I spent money on it.

David Delaney [00:34:55]:
And in really, like, collecting that entire experience to 1 and connecting it to that glimmer, I'm able to, like, kind of enjoy when I see something and, like, oh, I want that. Then I don't buy it because I don't want all of this negative stuff that comes from buying it. And in that way, I can kind of like I don't know. That's one way that I've found money doesn't provide me with most of the things. I mean, that's very cliche. Yeah. Money can't buy this stuff. But I really feel it these days.

Lynn Grogan [00:35:20]:
I think well, I think what's interesting that I've observed is not like you guys are hoarding your money. You never do anything. We just talked about buying land. It's more of what I've seen you guys do. Heather's an artist, you're a musician, you're gonna invest in those things. You're gonna invest in living in a place that you absolutely love and, you know, having experiences that you really wanna have. So it's not like you guys never spend money. It's just very intentional.

David Delaney [00:35:44]:
Yeah. I think it's that I was surprised to find that in the million ways you can spend money, the ways that actually make my life better are very few and specific. It's really like just a few things, and so I should be focusing my money there instead of doing the same things over and over which aren't working for me, and each time thinking, oh, this item will make me happier. I do wish it worked differently, though. Like, the thing that would make me happiest is being better at the violin. And so if I could just, like, spend money

Lynn Grogan [00:36:17]:
You're so good at it now.

David Delaney [00:36:19]:
Yeah. No amount would ever satisfy me. But I would spend all my money down and just pour it into getting better at violin if I could. But, unfortunately, the way to get better at violin is to play the violin.

Lynn Grogan [00:36:30]:
How do you think someone could design a life that is not centered around work? Like, what advice do you have?

David Delaney [00:36:35]:
For me, the first thing I had to do because I feel like even when I was a musician, my life was centered around work, and it's because I was always worried about money. The first thing I think is, if you don't want your life to be centered around work, you first have to be aware and understand your financial position. If you don't understand your spending, then I don't think you can be free of, like, economic anxiety about your job. I I think you're tied to your job and trapped in your job if you don't have the ability to, like, hop to another job and have a period of unemployment. And you can't get there unless you know, like, what you're spending, what you're spending on, and what of those things you could cut back if you needed to. So the first thing I'd say if you don't wanna have your life revolve around your job is understand your financial life. And that's so easy these days because you can just download all your data from your bank or your credit card, throw it in Google Sheets, and categorize it. There's YouTube videos that'll show you how to do it.

David Delaney [00:37:27]:
You just really quickly do a month's comparison. Do a month by month thing. Like, how did I spend this month? What did I spend on this month? Doesn't have to be fancy. Just put in categories that make sense to you, like groceries, personal spending.

Lynn Grogan [00:37:38]:
Yeah.

David Delaney [00:37:39]:
I'm always surprised how many people don't know this. They don't know what they spend every month. And that unknowing would keep me shoveling money into the pot as quickly as I could because I wouldn't know how quickly it was leaving the pot.

Lynn Grogan [00:37:51]:
Yeah. Well, and it's interesting too that you say that because I think knowledge is part of it. But what I've seen in coaching too is I've had clients who's just like, I've got some of the millions in the bank, and they still have anxiety. So it's I think there's, like, knowing and there's awareness, and then I think there's also some, like, healing or knowledge around where the anxiety is coming from. Because I think that's a part of it too. It's like, okay, now that I see it, if I'm still having a lot of anxiety when I think about spending money or whatnot, okay. Where is that coming from too? Because I know the numbers. So I think there's 2 parts.

Lynn Grogan [00:38:29]:
I'm gonna, like, add on to what you just said there. No.

David Delaney [00:38:31]:
I think you're definitely right. And that's, I guess I'm on a new side of that. Maybe I'm talking about an old version of me. I definitely have had to wrestle as Heather and I have, like, saved better and more. I've had to wrestle with the fact that, like, it sounds just like your clients. Like, to me, money means safety. I actually wrote a funny song about this and put it on my Instagram. It's called number go up.

David Delaney [00:38:56]:
But I had to realize that there was really no number that would ever make me feel safe. I think feeling safe is kind of impossible to truly ever fully grasp. Like, there's always gonna be some unknown that you can't, life would be boring, honestly, if you reach perfect safety.

Lynn Grogan [00:39:11]:
Yeah.

David Delaney [00:39:12]:
But yeah. So I had to wrestle with that still, but realized that there's no number. There's no finish line to cross. I'll always have something I don't know. Hopefully, I'll eventually get over it. But I'll most likely always have some kind of unsafe, insecure feeling. And that just acknowledging the lie that if I cross this number or that number, that'll go away, it's not going to. I remember crossing numbers in my music job of, like, savings and being, like, after this, now I feel safe.

David Delaney [00:39:38]:
Yeah. And then

Lynn Grogan [00:39:39]:
I would go and

David Delaney [00:39:39]:
be like, no. Maybe a little more financial buffer for safety.

Lynn Grogan [00:39:43]:
Yeah. You're like, wow. That was a lie. A lie that I told myself. And that yeah. I think that's part of it. I think both of the things we're saying are so useful. Right? Because if you don't know your numbers at all, there's probably just gonna be some just natural, like, just anxious thoughts about it.

Lynn Grogan [00:39:59]:
And then for a lot of people, that can help a lot. It's just it sounds like it's helped you guys. It definitely has helped us just kinda knowing what's coming in and out. But, yeah, that second part where it's just like, like, okay. There's that anxious spot again. Like, nothing has gone wrong. This is just normal for me to sometimes think and feel this way.

David Delaney [00:40:17]:
Part of it for me sometimes is I think about it, I've been thinking about writing a song about this. But, like, accepting that bad things are going to happen to me. For the rest of my life, there will always be bad things that will happen to me, and I'm never going to eradicate those from my life. No amount of, like, financial safety will prevent a terrible accident from happening. You know, like, it just won't work. Yeah. That way, you can't Yeah.

Lynn Grogan [00:40:39]:
You can't control everything.

David Delaney [00:40:40]:
Even, like, the most rich people in the world can't insulate themselves from misfortune. So in that way, again, you can kind of reveal the lie to yourself that, like, you can't insulate yourself. Bad things will happen. You'll get through them just like you've gotten through all the other bad things.

Lynn Grogan [00:40:52]:
Yeah. I feel like you maybe had, like, a numbered list before of how somebody creates a life that's not centered around work. I added an addendum to your first one, which is to know your numbers. Did you have more things on your list?

David Delaney [00:41:04]:
I would think once you have, like, an idea, then I think you might be able to have the confidence to draw boundaries in your work and start not saying yes to everything like I do, or I did. Another thing I think is great to realize is that, like, in my opinion, being a perfect worker who says yes to everything, and is always working so hard, it generally just leads to more work and people relying on you, but doesn't actually generally, in my experience, lead to rewards for you, the hardworking worker. Generally get, like, maybe a pat on the back or anything. But I don't think it's worth it. Basically, I don't think anything's worth sacrificing, like, your free time. You should be prioritizing your life over your work. And so I guess you should just make sure you understand the deal you're currently making with your work, what you're sacrificing, and why. And then be constantly renegotiating that and saying, like, what boundary can I draw to, like, make my life better and my work less? I was thinking even in, like, your personal life, though.

David Delaney [00:42:03]:
I guess what I'm thinking about is, like, you should figure out what, like, is restful to you, relaxing, energy building. Yeah. Because I, for many years, thought it was music. Music's my whole life, my whole personality. But that's not the case. If I play music, I'm working on it, expending any energy to get better on it and make a good project. I'm actually still struggling to figure out what exactly I do that's just, like, restful and, like, pure enjoyment other than, like, staring at my phone, which I don't like to do. Sometimes it's reading.

David Delaney [00:42:29]:
But honestly, that list is something I'm currently at. That's the stage I'm working on is trying to figure out what are those activities that are like that are what I'm working towards, you know, working for.

Lynn Grogan [00:42:39]:
I feel like I'm in that place too. Because I'm like, okay. Now I feel like I have a really good balance between work and my personal life. Now I'm like, oh my god. There's an abundance of time in my personal life, because, you know, we also don't have kids to occupy that space, and we travel a lot, so we're not near, like, our family. They take up time. So we spend time with friends, and I'm like, oh, what are the other hobbies that I do besides working? And trying not to fill that with just more work because I'm not quite sure what to do with my time.

David Delaney [00:43:04]:
Yeah. I find I fill it up with personal work, and then I kind of burn myself out.

Lynn Grogan [00:43:07]:
Yeah.

David Delaney [00:43:07]:
It's like I have work, and then I have work that doesn't pay. And then I have this 3rd category that I know exists, but I don't even know what's over there.

Lynn Grogan [00:43:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe it's like constant growth. Right? Because at some point, like, you'll be retired sooner than later. Right? And then it's like, okay. Well, now there's not this paycheck coming in, and I don't have this identity, the side identity, I guess, as a CPA. And I do you know, maybe you do music more prominently in your life, but then it's like, okay.

Lynn Grogan [00:43:36]:
Well, what does that look like? What does that area of growth look like?

David Delaney [00:43:39]:
Yeah. And how do I make sure it doesn't burn me out of music like it did last time? Yeah. But I think I know how to do that. It was just I think it was just trying to make it into a job. Nowadays, I really caution people on the classic advice of, like, oh, follow your dreams. Like, do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Those kinds of things. I think those are complete lies.

David Delaney [00:43:58]:
I really think, for me, it's worked way better to have a job that people expect to pay for and everyone thinks is a real job, and the music thing has no financial pressure on it. That's worked a lot better for me, and I think it would work a lot better for lots of people. No advices for everyone, but I do think that the regular job, do the arts on the side thing is underappreciated as a way through

Lynn Grogan [00:44:20]:
life. Any final thoughts before we wrap up today? Anything we didn't cover?

David Delaney [00:44:24]:
To wrap up, which are not necessarily tying themes I've already talked about together. But, yeah, there's lots of aspects of it. One, I think, is that, like, you have to let go of this idea that is good and noble to, like, be this hard worker who's sacrificing for their job. And I think sometimes you do a better job if you draw boundaries and you have to shift your priorities. Like, if you're not prioritizing your life over work, work's gonna constantly win. There's that mental shift of, like, you have to start making decisions to prioritize your life.

Lynn Grogan [00:44:54]:
If somebody wanted to find your work online, where would they go looking?

David Delaney [00:44:58]:
Don't look for my CPA work.

Lynn Grogan [00:45:00]:
Not taking new clients, everyone.

David Delaney [00:45:02]:
So, my band is called the Whiskey Boys, whiskey boys.com. I think you'll see my link here.

Lynn Grogan [00:45:08]:
I will. Yes.

David Delaney [00:45:08]:
We just put out a new song. We is just me, really. Oh, no. I found out a bunch of parts. I had some cool players on this side. Pete Milo playing guitar. Anyways, it's called Elsewhere, and there's a cool music video that our friend Brian recorded. He did an amazing job.

David Delaney [00:45:21]:
He did this cool thing where he filmed it like twice as fast and had me sing twice as fast and then slowed it down so it all looks like it's in slow motion. It looks so cool.

Lynn Grogan [00:45:29]:
Yes.

David Delaney [00:45:30]:
And so you can check out that, which I highly recommend. And, yeah, the new song is called Elsewhere. It's on Spotify, Apple Music and all the other ones.

Lynn Grogan [00:45:38]:
Perfect. Check it out. And we'll have a link. Right now.

David Delaney [00:45:40]:
I have Instagram.

Lynn Grogan [00:45:42]:
Yes. I will have links in the show notes. So thank you, David, for coming on today.

David Delaney [00:45:45]:
Oh, thanks for having me.

Lynn Grogan [00:46:00]:
Hey, friend. Thank you for listening to today's conversation. If you're considering a major career or lifestyle change and you wanna talk to someone about this, I'm here for you. You can learn how to work with me 1 on 1 on my website, which is lynngrogan.com. And I also have details in the show notes. See you next time.